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Inside EMS
by Inside EMS

Inside EMS Podcast: Dogma in EMS, how to escape violent encounters

Chris Cebollero and Kelly Grayson bring expert perspective to hot topics, clinical issues, operational and leadership lessons to EMS personnel and leaders to be safe and successful

By EMS1 Staff

Download this week's episode on iTunesSoundCloud or via RSS feed

In this week's Inside EMS podcast, hosts Chris Cebollero and Kelly Grayson discuss the proper way to educate and train students in active shooter scenarios after an instructor teaching a basic EMT class set off an explosive device that blew out a student's ear drum.

Chris and Kelly talk about what the term "dogma" in EMS means in their clinical issue segment. Their discussion takes the path of challenging what you learn in class, how to develop great instructors and how to develop confidence with our medical directors.

"The people we attract to EMS — the Type A personalities, ADHD, adrenaline junkies — predisposes us to be accepters of dogma because our students don't want to think real hard," Kelly said. 

They also interview Kip Teitsort about DT4EMS and his Escaping Violent Encounters program. Kip discusses his program, how it was developed and how to identify volatile situations.

If you have any topics or items you would like to hear discussed on Inside EMS, let us know in the comment section below. 

Here are links to some of the articles and other items mentioned on the show:

Instructor sets off grenade in drill; blows eardrum of EMT student

‘Realistic’ EMS training must avoid real danger

Responders seek bone marrow match for fellow EMT

Active shooter opens fire at Ga. FedEx; 6 hurt

AMR: Vegas transport changes causing long delays

Faith in EMS: My karma ran over your dogma

Escaping violent encounters: How to break a 2-handed choke hold

Escaping Violent Encounters: Where you stand could save your life

Escaping Violent Encounters: What one simple technique can keep you safe?

About the author

Inside EMS, a podcast series that features hosts Chris Cebollero and Kelly Grayson, brings expert perspective to hot topics, clinical issues, operational and leadership lessons to EMS personnel and leaders to be safe and successful.

Inside EMS is available for download on iTunes, SoundCloud and via RSS feed.
The comments below are member-generated and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of or its staff. If you cannot see comments, try disabling privacy and ad blocking plugins in your browser. All comments must comply with our Member Commenting Policy.
Jake Lindauer Jake Lindauer Sunday, May 04, 2014 10:47:43 AM What do you guys think about higher education for EMS? Would you like to see Paramedics required to have a bachelors or associates degree? A college education, or a good one anyway, teaches more then the content of the class, but also critical thinking. There are paramedics who are able to think for themselves, but I have also experienced "cookie cutter" EMTs and medics. Also a degree would allow for more hours to get a better grasp on the pathophysiology of disease so we can think what interventions would benefit the patient the most. It also presents the opportunity for technical writing classes to improve the credibility and professionalism in our reports. The added education could also lead to the ability for EMS providers to refuse transport and set up alternate treatment methods, similar to community paramedics. I'd like your guys' input.
Chris Cebollero Chris Cebollero Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:24:37 PM Hey Jake great question. I would tell you that higher education is an essential part of our professional development. As the future of EMS develops, you will see that leaders will be needing a minimum of a Master degrees to get hired, and EMS providers Bachelors desired but Masters preferred. Where we are with the development and implementation of Mobile Integrated Health Care, I predict we will need our paramedics to act at the level of PA's, and they will need that certification. As a matter of fact, knowing how long it takes to complete PA school our career field is already behind… P.S. Prediction …… By the time the above happens, we will be able to bill for this service too. Hope that helps your question Jake?
Phillip Aguet Phillip Aguet Sunday, May 04, 2014 4:57:24 PM I am sorry to say that many of the instructors I have encountered see the teaching of an EMT class merely as a source of secondary income. I have also met big-hearted and well meaning instructors who do the best they can within the limits of their training and experience. Learning and teaching and the related methods and practices come with expanding on the formal education outside of EMS. It must also be a main focus of educators in EMS to imprint upon their students that becoming and EMT is not merely a means to becoming a firefighter and nothing else. Instructors with a formal education outside of the EMS field will almost positively be empowered to question a protocol and know that what they are saying is valid and important whether speaking to a student or talking to a doctor. I think a push to developing the relationship with medical directors is also critical to changing the dogma that exists. Doctors and others in higher education understand that challenging ideas with well formulated arguments backed up by evidence is a welcomed form of interaction. But if your only experience with challenge is interpreting that as a form of disrespect, then how do you know?
Jake Lindauer Jake Lindauer Monday, May 05, 2014 5:54:11 AM Chris Cebollero Thanks for the input, I feel like increasing EMS education is a great thing for the field, even with my little bit of experience. However If we continue to require additional education, why don't we just put a PA on the ambulance? If it is preferred to have a master's degree, what will our education have that would differ from a PA? We would both work under a doctors license and I would assume have similar pay with similar education.
Kelly Grayson Kelly Grayson Monday, May 05, 2014 8:00:01 AM Jake Lindauer: Because PA's won't work on an ambulance for the money they pay paramedics. However, that doesn't necessarily mean than paramedic pay will stay low. I'm with Chris: raise the educational bar, and the compensation will follow. And while there may not be enough uniquely EMS knowledge *now* to support a master's degree, the same was said of nursing 20 years ago. I think in an era of increasing specialization, we won't be known as *prehospital* providers, we'll be known as *out of hospital* providers, where the knowledge base and variety of practice models will be much broader.
Chris Cebollero Chris Cebollero Tuesday, May 06, 2014 5:39:19 AM Kelly Grayson and myself will be talking about Community Paramedicine on the next episode of Inside EMS. Hopefully we will be able to shine some light on just this topic. Thank you all for the comments it is great to hear comments about the show. Any ideas you would like to suggest for future commentary?
Jake Lindauer Jake Lindauer Tuesday, May 06, 2014 2:45:27 PM Thanks for the replies and show. It is enjoyable as a new EMT to hear the changes and some issues in EMS. As for future commentary, what about Volunteer EMS, Status System Management, Paramedics in other roles such as hospital ERs, or even hospital based ambulances. I am looking forward to you opinion on CP in the next episode.

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