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Home > Topics > EMS Management

4 medics arrested after man collapses, dies outside hospital

A hospital worker is also among those arrested following Carl Cope's death earlier this year

Health Service Journal

WEST MIDLANDS, UK — Four ambulance staff and a hospital worker have been arrested by police after a man collapsed and died outside an accident and emergency department.

West Midlands Police has said five people have been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter by gross negligence and misconduct in a public office following the incident at Walsall Manor Hospital on 23 June this year.

Full story: 4 medics arrested after man collapses, dies outside hospital

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Sherry Karnes Sherry Karnes Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:09:46 PM Am I missing something here? Pts leave ER's AMA all the time here in the states, and some of them die. How can you hold a crew responsible for a pt death? Did they walk over him on their way to the door instead of CPR? Please somebody explain this story to me......
Jim Bianga Jim Bianga Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:18:12 PM I was going to say the same thing Sherry!
Ben Huff Ben Huff Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:27:53 PM I agree with you, something is missing and not the whole story being published.
Jim Bianga Jim Bianga Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:38:03 PM Only thing is if the laws are different in their country? But sounds like the Pt was AMA, so it is on the Pt. My wife suggested that maybe the family got involved ( as they usually do) with a wrongful death investigation?
Jarren Strong Jarren Strong Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:52:01 PM Agreed, the whole story isn't being published. How could the medics or hospital staff be held responsible? Even if the patient didn't sign an AMA paper, but just got up and left, wouldn't it be considered kidnapping, or illegal detainment, to hold him against his will? How are they going to hold the medics responsible? They took him to the ER didn't they? Is it their responsibility to keep him there?
Jim Bianga Jim Bianga Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:55:54 PM I'm not seeing where the medics are responsible for this Pt I can see the ER staff for not paying attention or caring for the Pt, and he just walks out??
Don Talenti Don Talenti Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:57:43 PM This is what you get with Socialism and socialized health care. Tyranny and irrational actions. Coming soon to us, under Obamacare.
Mackle Mart Mackle Mart Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:57:44 PM I don't understand. The patient was dropped off my medics and then left the hospital and died? How are the medics at fault? They did their job. They brought him to the hospital. What control do they have after they leave?
Justin Langan Justin Langan Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:18:01 PM I have retired after over a decade working in London. I would suspect that the patient might have been a regular attender at A&E and was likely ETOH and did the usual trick of being abusive and being allowed to leave by staff.
Alexander Takacs III Alexander Takacs III Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:20:33 PM Interesting read. I see complacency at some area hospitals already. Of course it didn't help the guy who hadn't been discharged to be outside the facility. Who knows maybe it was Darwinism at work.
Steven Murphy Steven Murphy Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:21:33 PM Wonder if he stepped outside for a smoke and dropped over dead? I found an ER patient once laying in the parking lot having a seizure once. The person had stepped out for a smoke. A few ER folks got fired over that.
Mike Ledgerwood Mike Ledgerwood Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:24:08 PM If he left on his own, why are hospital workers being charged? If he was in need of help and they ignored him then I could understand charging them. Makes me glad I don't work in London. Be nice if they would tell the whole storry.
Chris Gaillard Chris Gaillard Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:58:52 PM The paramedics did carry him to the hospital for treatment but left him in the waiting room no word on the care that he received during transport but was not placed in side the ER, next the medics were outside the hospital and witinessed the patient collapse and did not render aid but one stood by and did nothing another stayed in his ambulance and did not even get out and the other 2 went inside the hospital to tell security that the patient was outside and had collapsed but did not go to the patient to render aid.
Rachel Armstrong Rachel Armstrong Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:26:39 PM Wonder if the medics did a full baseline set of obs?
Pamela Frazier Whitman Pamela Frazier Whitman Friday, December 21, 2012 6:02:41 AM This is a poorly written article...who even knows what happened by the way this was written?
Robert Bauer Robert Bauer Friday, December 21, 2012 6:17:42 AM Yes, poorly written, but if you click the 'related articles' link on the top right, more is explained. Basically, all of the medics involved, just sat there and watched the man collapse. The only action taken was that one of them alerted security.
Jeremiah Tscherny Jeremiah Tscherny Friday, December 21, 2012 6:52:11 AM This is Government Healthcare.....
David Charles Siciliano David Charles Siciliano Friday, December 21, 2012 7:35:21 AM One word a Lawyer.
Steve Jacobi Steve Jacobi Friday, December 21, 2012 9:45:28 AM This is in the UK. The Paramedics are held accountable for their actions and don't just rely on RMA or AMA papers like the US Paramedics do to get them out of all responsibility of patient care. Some in the US keep saying they want more a broader scope of practice but it is clear they probably don't want the responsibility that goes with it. Most health care professionals know a piece of paper does not always clear you of all responsibility.
Cindy Hayward Cindy Hayward Friday, December 21, 2012 11:54:38 AM I have worked in hospital security, In the emergency room the staff keep tabs on Patients, We have had Patients on Police holds managed to exit if some just turns there back for moment. If this man walked out of the ER dress in street clothes. Then died in parking lot. I would say he made a choice to leave on his own condescendence.
Robert Bauer Robert Bauer Friday, December 21, 2012 2:46:57 PM Not sure how this has anything directly to do with their healthcare system... according to the related article, when he walked out and collapsed, people that had a duty to act did nothing.
Stephen Romhanyi Stephen Romhanyi Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:46:45 PM I think you're all failing to see the related article (top right of this one) discussing one of the paramedics that _ignored_ the unconscious man. The issue isn't that he left, that he died, or anything but the inaction by everyone trained beyond basic first aid. The minimum action taken should have been to begin CPR, something that I don't think a single person reading this couldn't have done.
Justin Langan Justin Langan Sunday, December 23, 2012 2:01:35 PM I think you should read my replies. This is likely a frequent flyer. Who has been attending A&E for years with "Chest Pain", normally ETOH and perhaps not as polite to staff as he should be. These kind of patients are common at every A&E in large towns and cities in the UK, when they feel they want to get seen ASAP they throw themselves to the ground, this will mean straight into a cubicle or resus. I think he cried wolf so often that the one time he is genuine he gets ignored. This fits the story and who has been disciplined almost exactly. The Nurse would only send a patient who regularly attends with CP to the waiting room without an ECG unless they self presented to A&E with own transport. I don't think this is a problem that happens just in the UK but I suspect if the hospital staff were not so overworked and the Ambulance crews not run ragged perhaps the apathy which led to these events might not have appeared.
Jeremiah Tscherny Jeremiah Tscherny Monday, December 24, 2012 1:17:03 AM Good question:) Just like with anything- Competition makes harder working people and/or better products.... If there is only one monopoly, where is the competition? Where is the incentive to be better? Why not just kick back and do the minimum of what you think you have to do? What is worse- when the people feel entitled to a job - why would they feel motivated to do extra? The mentality of some entitlement minded employees can become 'I never got the official call to get out of this Ambulance, so I'm not getting out and dealing with that guy, that's just more work'... We need competition, we need incentive, motivation, to give checks and balances to this system we need non socialist administration who have the freedom fire slackers when these slackers feel it is is their 'right' to do substandard work and collect a paycheck. I am certainly not anti-union- but this is the pitfall of some unions especially in the public sectorwhere there is no competition. There are some government monopoly school employees with ridiculous union regulations that protect SOME bad teachers.... For instance- when it takes years to fire a teacher even after he admits to being sexually inappropriate with a student, or when public schools ask for endless revenue increases yet produce less intelligent students than private schools that sometimes cost 1/3rd of the public school, these school systems obviously needs to be freed up to competition. Granted some things like the Military obviously cannot be privatized... (Even though there were small exceptions to this in these last couple conflicts)...Thanks for asking:)
Peggy Sue Peggy Sue Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:49:39 PM When care is transferred to Emergency room staff. Emergency room staff is responsible. care was transferred. Ambulance and paramedics did their job and got the man to hospital alive.
Job Zambo Job Zambo Saturday, January 05, 2013 12:09:24 AM l think medics they are not responsable for the death,.they did their paart to take the patient to the hospital alive, it is beyond their control to chance the pace of the hospital staff. it is indeed hospital responsability to organise their staff and teach them the importance of triaging.

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